Introduction
The ethnic origin of Vietnamese Kinh first published on May 2018 (four years ago) generated some controversy and disbelief among some readers; and there are still denials from some Vietnamese nationalists about their true origin.
This is understandable due to the anti-China sentiment propagated by the current Vietnamese government and their recent turbulent wars such as the wars with the French and then the Americans which are not conducive to the learning of their long history.
So we will address the points raised by Vietnamese nationalists below.
Vietnamese Kinh are Kra-Dai (Lac Viet) people?
If the Vietnamese Kinh were the native Lac Viet, they would be speaking a Kra-Dai language and not an Austroasiatic language. Furthermore, the Vietnamese Kinh do not practice any of the culture or religion practised by the Kra-Dai people such as the Mo religion.
The natives of Red River basin are the Lac Viet which is a branch of the Kra-Dai people. Their modern descendants are the Tay, Nung, Zhuang, Buyei who still live in Vietnam and Guangxi. These people speak Kra-Dai language and still practice their culture and religion. The Zhuang people in China still call themselves Luo Yue.
The Central Tai are the descendants of Luo Yue/Lac Viet whereas the Northern Tai are the descendants of the western Ou Yue/Au Viet.
 |
| Original homeland of Lac Viet before Han Chinese migration |
As narrated in the various origin articles in this blog, the Kra-Dai natives escaped to the hills or mountains after the mass migration of the Han Chinese to the more fertile coastal land which are suitable for farming and fishing. The hills are usually considered less attractive to the Han Chinese in southern China and also Taiwan.
This also happened in Myanmar, Laos and western Malaysia where the natives usually escaped to live up in the hills after the migration of the more dominant ethnic group in those countries.
Vietnamese Kinh are Austroasiatic people?
From their spoken language, you would think that they are Austroasiatic people but their physical phenotype/appearance show that they are not Austroasiatic people. Austroasiatic people are darker skinned, thicker lips, rounder eyes East Asians. The physical phenotype of Vietnamese Kinh are the same as the Han Chinese.
It is quite easy to go to Vietnam and verify for yourself whether the Kinh looks like Central East Asian (left) or South East Asian (right). Austro-Asiatic people are South East Asian in physical phenotype. There are 54 ethnic groups in Vietnam so please identify the correct ethnic group first.
Why do Kinh speak an Austroasiatic language?
Their language is a creole language - a mixture between the Austroasiatic Muong language and the Annamese Chinese language. The Annamese Chinese language is the original language spoken by the Vietnamese Kinh. All original Austroasiatic languages are not tonal and also not monosyllabic unlike Chinese languages.
The Austroasiatic Muong people came from the Mekong River basin and later migrated east into Vietnam's coastal region after the Ming dynasty was driven out of Vietnam. Le Loi was recorded to live in the Annamese hills where the Austroasiatic Muongic people live (refer to Keith Taylor's book). Most of the Muongic people still live in the Annamese hills today. The origin of the Muong people as narrated in other articles in this blog are often confused with the origin of the Kinh.
 |
| Muongic homeland |
Vietnamese Kinh are the natives because they are the ethnic majority?
The ethnic majority of most countries in South-East Asia, America and Australia are not the natives so Kinh being the ethnic majority in Vietnam doesn't mean they are the natives. On the contrary, the natives are usually the ethnic minority.
|
Country |
Ethnic
majority |
Natives |
|
Myanmar |
Sino-Tibetan (Bamar) |
Austroasiatic (Palaung, Mon) |
|
Thailand |
Tai |
Austroasiatic (Mon, Khmer) |
|
Laos |
Lao Tai |
Austroasiatic (Khmu, Muong) |
|
West Malaysia |
Austronesian (Malay) |
Austroasiatic (Senoic) |
|
Singapore |
Han Chinese |
Austronesian (Orang Laut) |
|
Taiwan |
Han Chinese |
Austronesian |
|
Philippines |
Austronesian (Filipino) |
Negrito (Aeta, Ati) |
|
Southeastern China |
Han Chinese |
Kra-Dai/Bai-Yue |
|
Japan |
Yamato |
Ainu (Jomon) |
|
USA |
European (Germanic) |
Native Amerindian |
|
Australia |
European (Anglo) |
Native Australians (Australoid) |
The situation in northern Vietnam is the same as the situation in southeastern China where the natives are the Bai-Yue but the ethnic majority is the Han Chinese who lives in the coastal cities (Kinh means city) when northern Vietnam was a province of proper China for more than 1000 years until the end of the Tang dynasty.
Why the reverence for Nam-Viet?
Up until recent history, the Vietnamese Kinh have deep respect for Han Chinese heroes such as General Ma Yuan and General Trieu Da/Zhao Tuo. The detailed evidence for Ma Yuan worshipping by the Kinh is in the article at the link below.
However, the Jing people (which is a subgroup of the Kinh living in China) still worship Ma Yuan today because they were not affected by the politics of Vietnamese government.
 |
| Jing people worship Ma Yuan |
Note that the other ethnic minorities in China like Zhuang/Tai and Hmong-Mien do not revere Han Chinese heroes even though they have been living in China for at least 2000 years.
Why would the Kinh worship the Chinese invaders if they are not Han Chinese? Why would they call themselves Han Nhan (Han Chinese people) instead of Lac Viet; and practice Han Chinese culture for more than 1000 years after the so-called 'independence' from China in 938 AD where they could have reverted back to their native culture, religion and original language?
The 938 AD event was actually just a power grab by Ngô Quyen(吳權), a Han Chinese himself, after the Tang dynasty collapsed. This is similar to the way general Trieu Da/Zhao Tuo declared himself king of Nam-Viet after the collapse of the Qin dynasty about 1000 years earlier. It is not a 'declaration of independence' as reported in misleading western media.
In fact, Zhao Tuo/Trieu Da and Nam-Viet kingdom were never considered invaders by the Vietnamese Kinh until the 20th century AD. Nam-Viet/Nan-Yue was a Han Chinese kingdom and not a native Lac-Viet kingdom.
The country name of Viet-Nam was bestowed by China's Qing emperor which is just the reversed word of the previous Nam-Viet kingdom before the Han dynasty reunited with it. The Viet/Yue word in the country's name is reflective of the natives' land and not because Vietnamese Kinh are the native Vietnamese as explained below.
The term 'Yue Chinese' means 'native Yue'?
Yue is the word for the native Vietnamese whereas Yue Chinese are the Han Chinese immigrants from northern China to Vietnam, Guangxi and Guangdong. The native Yue (Lac Viet) are Kra-Dai speaking people. They are two distinct ethnic groups which are often mixed-up together.
This situation is similar to the word white Americans used for European immigrants to America who are not genetically related to the native Americans even though both groups are called 'Americans'.
Total abandonment of one's culture and religion?
There are some people who claimed that Kinh are 'native Lac Viet/Luo Yue' who adopted the Han Chinese culture and religion. While it is true that some elements of foreign culture could be adopted but to totally adopt another ethnic group's culture and totally abandon one's own culture is very rare and even ridiculous especially when the real natives still practice that culture and religion in the SAME country i.e. Vietnam.
 |
| Bronze drum in China |
The bronze drum is a very important piece of musical instrument left behind by their ancestors but the Kinh have never been recorded to use it, instead they play Han Chinese musical instruments as in the video below.
You might argue that the Kinh have 'forgotten' how important these drums are, but this argument is foolish considering that the ethnic Tay-Nung who are also called Vietnamese, who are the real natives living in the same region i.e. northern Vietnam, still use the bronze drum for many important occasions until today. To abandon the bronze drum and totally revere and adopt the invaders' culture is illogical especially 1000 years after independence from China.
The Zhuang people living in Guangxi still use the bronze drum even after living with the Han Chinese for more than 2000 years which invalidated the baseless speculation that Han Chinese assimilated all the natives.
Yet, the Kinh who are supposed to be the 'native Yue' don't use the bronze drum when they are nearer to Guangxi and the other ethnic Tai in northern Vietnam. This is another strong evidence that the Kinh are not the native Yue as claimed by many Vietnamese nationalists.
The Dong Son drums are from the Austroasiatic people and not Kra-Dai people?
Let's take a look at the design of the Dong Son drum below, there are frog symbols and the different layers of the Mo religion (which is the religion of the Zhuang people) imprinted on it. This elaborate design proves that this culture belonged to the Tai people and not the Muong people.
 |
| Dong Son drum |
The Austroasiatic Muong people adopted a diluted version of this bronze drum culture from the Tai but why not the Kinh who are supposed to be the 'native Lac Viet/Luo Yue'? This bronze drum do not have the elaborate design of the Mo religion in it which proves that the Muong people are not the natives of Red River basin as recorded in Chinese history.
 |
| Muong people with bronze drums |
Furthermore, the Zhuang people in China still call themselves Luo Yue/Lac Viet whereas the Muong people do not and never called themselves Lac Viet.
The video below shows the real Luo Yue/Lac Viet people whose religion, language, culture and origin are completely different from the Kinh and also the Austroasiatic Muong people.
Migration of Minh Huong
This section is an extension of the many waves of migration previously stated in part one of the ethnic origin of Kinh article in this blog.
They were later relocated from Da-Nang to Mekong Delta where they annexed part of Mekong Delta land from Cambodia.
Within these armies, there were many Hepu Yue-Chinese soldiers since they were also the chief commanders of the regions of Lianzhou and Qinzhou.
 |
| Minh Hương in Vietnam |
Genetics
For those who want proof of paper genetics instead of physical appearance/phenotype as proof. This is the genetic report of an ethnic Kinh who initially refused to believe that Kinh are Han Chinese so he did a DNA test. Many Kinh who did a personal DNA test got similar results.
The DNA test says Southern Han - 44 %, Northern Han - 13 %, Tai - 6%. So the total Han Chinese component is 57% which is the largest component.
The original Kinh were Han Chinese but a certain percentage intermarried with the female members of the ethnic minorities in Vietnam but still with a majority of Han Chinese genes which is their original genes.
Note that there are 55 ethnic groups with Vietnamese citizenship in Vietnam so please identify your ethnic group first before going for a DNA test. Assuming that everyone in Vietnam is Kinh is a common mistake by many people because most people are confused between nationality and ethnicity. Some Vietnamese nationalists even deliberately mislead people by showing the DNA of the ethnic minorities in Vietnam instead of only the ethnic Kinh.
Conclusion
The Vietnamese Kinh are Han Chinese belonging mainly to the Yue Chinese branch and also the Southern Min Chinese (Tran dynasty) due to their long history of migration. Their history is similar to the southern Han Chinese who migrated to southern China, Taiwan and Singapore where they became the ethnic majority.
They still practice their original Han Chinese culture and religion but their original Annamese Chinese language has merged with the Austroasiatic Muong language into the modern Vietnamese language.
 |
| Vietnamese Kinh in their national costume Ao Dai |
The real natives of Vietnam (Bai-Yue/Tai and also the Austroasiatic people such as Muong) still exist as the ethnic minorities in Vietnam today but unfortunately, they are often mixed up with the Vietnamese Kinh by Vietnamese nationalists and also western media.
We will add more points in the future to this article.
Related links
Ethnic origin of Kinh part one
https://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2018/05/ethnic-origin-of-kinh-in-vietnam.html
Origin of Hepu Yue language
Origin of Hepu Yue language
https://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2021/10/origin-of-hepu-yue-language.html
Last updated: 11 Sept 2022
Copyright © eastasiaorigin.blogspot 2017-2022. All rights reserved.
Note that the classification of Vietnamese as an Austroasiatic language is far from settled, as most of the basic words that are supposedly cognated to the Austroasiatic language also shows cognacy to Chinese. Old Chinese novels such as 三國演義 and 水滸 was "translated" (more like transliterated) into Vietnamese almost word by word.
ReplyDeleteAlso note that Vietnamese folklore that is supposedly about ancient Viets all mention the Hung (incorrectly associated with the Lac 雒 king) kings that bears curiously enormous coincidences with Chu 楚 Hung 熊 kings from the location of the state (roughly Hunan, Hubei, Jiangxi, Jiangsu, Tzejiang) to the unique surname given to their daughter Mi 羋.
The detailed answers to some of your statements can be found in other Vietnamese-related articles in this blog so we won't repeat here.
DeleteIs there any plan for the origin of Japanese? They seem to be the only country not represented on this site.
ReplyDeleteThere is a plan to publish the true origin of the Japanese as mentioned in an article on Dec 2021.
Deletehttps://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2021/12/most-popular-posts-in-this-blog-2021.html
Unfortunately, their true origin is still a mystery as we need linguistic, cultural, reliable historical text, archaeological evidence, genetic evidence which are lacking. There are some theories on the internet but they are not convincing by looking at all these factors above. Japanese is a language isolate which makes it difficult to know where their original homeland was.
I have been anticipating this second part and it didn't disappoint. Unfortunately, large swathes of Kinh Vietnamese have an identity crisis that relates to their origins. They simply refuse to even think that this may possibly be true due to a myriad number of reasons, not least of which is the centuries of bias. The varied looks of some Vietnamese and geographical location contributes to the confusion to a large degree also.
ReplyDeleteYet, they conveniently ignore the same cultural practices and customs; the natural kinship for each other despite political and historical tensions; and our physical phenotype appearing largely the same. I'm only mistaken for Japanese or Chinese.
Always appreciate your research and work. Would greatly appreciate articles tackling the Koreans and Japanese but I know this is also mired in a lot of misconceptions, biases and controversy so I would understand if it's too difficult of a task to take on and complete. As you clearly stated above, a lot is lacking.
Look forward to any additional points you feel need to be added to this article.
A new section was added which looked at the bronze drums which is an important part of the Lac Viet identity.
DeleteThe Chinese government itself and some Chinese also don't want to be related to the Kinh people, you shouldn't blame most of the Vietnamese or nationalism but rather the leftist nationalism that which is somewhat negative.
ReplyDeleteThis blog tells the true origin of the various ethnic groups and exclude any political biased sentiments. China has been trying to get back Vietnam since the Song dynasty until the Qing dynasty but it was not successful except during the Ming dynasty, there are many historical books attesting to this. The Kinh even called themselves 'Han Nhan' during the Nguyen dynasty.
DeleteSo the current sour relationship between China and Vietnam is quite recent but even blood brothers quarrel among themselves as in China and Taiwan so please leave out politics from the discussions.
1. What you said is true because the Nguyen dynasty called themselves 'Han Nhan' which provide evidence (beside other evidence) that they still remember their true ethnicity.
ReplyDelete2. As explained in other Vietnamese articles, the distortion of true Vietnamese history started from Ngo Si Lien's books in 1479 AD to prevent Vietnam from another incursion by China after the Ming dynasty incursion.
3. Unfortunately, history repeats itself again with the present Vietnamese government due to the territorial conflict in the South China Seas.
4. The Han Chinese in Singapore and Taiwan do not deny their ethnicity even though they are separated politically from China.
For more details on the origin of the Annamese Chinese language, please read 'Origin of Vietnamese language part two' in this blog.
ReplyDelete